PILATES AND PHYSICAL THERAPY: DOES IT REALLY WORK?

Welcome And Jillian’s PT Background

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Hello, thank you for coming on the pod. Why don't you introduce yourself and your background and what you do, and we'll dive in from there.

SPEAKER_05 0:29

Love it. So my name is Jillian Van Denent. I am a physical therapist here in Phoenix. I mostly specialize in Pilates-based physical therapy. So the clinic that I work in is a private practice with all the Pilates apparatuses, all the practitioners in there, either Pilates trained or Pilates certified. And yeah, general outpatient orthopractice. We treat a variety of things. I was a competitive dancer growing up, so that's my background. Classic athlete-turned physical therapist story. I had a bunch of injuries, went through PT, felt like I didn't, wasn't understood by my clinician because I was a dancer. So just very unique kind of movements. And that ultimately led me to be a physical therapist.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

So what was some of your worst injuries you?

SPEAKER_05 1:14

I am extremely hypermobile. So double-jointed is what people typically call it streetwise, but um extremely hypermobile. And I didn't really realize this until I was an adult, to be honest, when I started lifting weights, but snapping hip syndrome both sides. I think I have a torn labrum in one side. Um, haven't really addressed it. I'm a bad patient. Um, I have really bad shoulder instability bilaterally, just instable, unstable everywhere, lots of knee injuries. But um, the first thing that I went to PT for and got a referral for was my hips.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

What are you doing for those injuries that aren't formally diagnosed?

SPEAKER_05 1:53

What am I doing? Okay. Um so as far as the hip. Like hip, shoulder, everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:58

So when I first kind of discovered I had all these injuries myself, um, this was in college when I was studying um in undergrad. I took up weightlifting and it was really hard for me to understand it because hypermobile people have a really hard time engaging their muscles. And we just kind of dump into our joints all the time. And in dance, we're just meant to push through it and just keep going, right? And so um I had some friends in college, we would go to the gym, and I would be like, oh, like I feel like I'm strong enough to lift the bar, but like I feel like my hips are going further than everybody else's, and I feel off on one side. Um, so once I learned more techniques and once I got more training um and learning from professors and friends and things like that, weightlifting definitely saved me for sure, just because I had a better kinesthetic awareness of my body, but also Pilates. Um, I would say senior year of college is when I started going to classes and I just fell in love because I danced in it. One, the music, like going to the beat of the music. Pilates classes. Pilates classes, right? So going to the beat of the music really like set it off for me, but mostly it was just the choreography sequences that really clicked with my brain, and nothing ever felt like that before with exercise. Um, so between my PT knowledge, like weightlifting and Pilates, I do a mixture of both to deal with injuries.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Did you ever do Zumba?

SPEAKER_05 3:18

I did in college a lot. Me and my mom did a lot too growing up. My mom's like, yeah, she loves Zumba. That's like her thing.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

My wife keeps trying to get my daughter because my wife's been doing it since like, I don't know, 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_05 3:30

Oh my gosh, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

And she's uh physical therapist. Oh yeah, cool. So where was I going with that? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Zumba seems like it was Zumba Tangential,

Hypermobility And Training For Control

SPEAKER_01 3:40

yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yeah. Um think especially with your like background stability. Like, how do you build stability for like your hip issues, your shoulder issues? Because a lot of people misunderstand that like having a good stable core actually with Pilates specifically, totally like your core stability like really like engages your whole body. And like for most people, it doesn't like you don't need to be that core extensive, but like you get to help out your posture throughout the day, not have back problems like I'm having right now.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Um everyone needs the core stability, yeah. Like you're saying, not every I think more than much, pretty much most people do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:37

Or at least learn how to get engaged correctly, right? Um, so as far as hypermobility goes and stability in general, I kind of think of more as like a neuromuscular thing rather than like a physical joint thing. So obviously, people are super flexible. Like I grew up dancing. I have girls that are flexible, more flexible than me. I had girls that whip their legs behind their heads and they had to. And um when I was dancing, I didn't get formal, like I didn't even know what Pilates was. When I was dancing, I didn't know how to pick up a barbell. I didn't, I was scared of that. I was scared of lifting weights. I just was fearful of working out. And I think that um with being hypermobile and having that stability, it's important to not only have your joints more stable and your muscles holding your joints accountable, right? It's kind of like a tug of war between the most uh joint and muscle with hypermobility, but also your brain being connected to your body to be able to get those muscles to fire. And I feel like Pilates does a really good job, Pleist principles in general does a really good job at teaching people how to engage their muscles properly, whether that's starting from the core, which I always typically start, no matter people's injuries, to be honest, um, and then going from joint to joint and using the apparatuses and the principles as a tool in my practice to help people gain that stability and get that their minds to click, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah. So do you have to build more muscles around your major joints that you have issues like your shoulders or your hips? Do you have to work more on those muscles to kind of stabilize it more?

SPEAKER_05 6:14

Exactly. So hypermobile people have more range of motion, right? So it's harder for someone to say, for example, like my hips are extremely hypermobile. I my IT band snaps over my greater choke. So every time I take a squat, I can feel it go over, and then I have super, super deep hip flexion. Most people have trouble with that, getting into their deepest squats, and I have really a lot of dorsiflexion. So it's harder for me to control weight because I have so much range.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:43

So you always want to work. I always start my patients who are very hypermobile, working in a shortened, very, very small range of motion to get their muscles to fire. So it is harder in a sense, and also hard on the brain, too. But you build on that, but you build, yeah, and it takes time, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Yeah, rather than pushing it to an extent, like which I did last weekend, and my back's been so fucked up.

SPEAKER_05 7:07

What did you do last weekend?

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Uh so I was I was on vacation for my first two-week vacation ever, and I came back and I lifted not not heavy weights, like I know, because it's just from plane flights, yeah, sitting for so long. Flight and all, like I just went like extremely lightweight because I'm just getting back into it. Yeah, and I was working out legs, lower body, and my wife called me up because I got up early from jet lag or whatever it is. So I was like, okay, I'm awake, I might as well just go to the gym. So it's like the third day in the row, and she was like, You're going to the gym. This is your third day in a row, and uh, you're probably overdoing it and without even like knowing what I'm doing. And I was just like, Don't worry, I'm going extremely low weight, very slow. And I swear, I hung up that phone, and that next set I was doing squats and my back, I was just like, oh fuck. Like it, like it, my my whole body started seizing up. And I'm like, why'd you jinx me like that? And this is the reason I didn't want to work out with her when we first started going out when I was like in my 20s. It's just like she just like corrected everything I was doing. I was like, oh God, I do not like working out with you. But but it it was it was the next set after she called me, and she's like, You're overdoing it. Yeah, you're overdoing it, you shouldn't be doing this much. And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever, whatever. And then like two reps later, I was like, It's like she knows what she's talking about, right?

SPEAKER_05 8:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Fucking physical therapist.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

So, how's the Pilates

Reformer Versus Mat Pilates Progressions

SPEAKER_01 9:05

that you do for physical therapy? Is it much different than what people are doing in like the different fitness studios? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:14

Um, I would say the approach is different since we're one-on-one. Um, we get an hour long with our patients. We're one-on-one. I'm glad I have the freedom to do that. Um, I kind of use the tools or the apparatuses, I would say, um, as a progression. So, for example, if someone comes up with low back pain, um, I do my whole assessment, my evaluation, I notice that they have poor um core control, whether that's in quadruped, laying supine, um, lifting, trying to do like a dead bug or a bridge or something. So if they have problems and then they report to me, hey, like I have problems doing dead bugs in class. So um I test them first. And then I'm like, okay, if they're not able to keep their back in the most degrees of freedom when you're just laying on a mat, right? Let's get you on a reformer to give you a little bit more stability, a little bit more, what I say, like kinesthetic awareness so they can feel something press against them.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:07

When they engage their core, add all the little straps, fun stuff. Really, it's just to add um like extremity activities while you try to keep your core engaged. If they're ready to move on from the reformer, I progress them to Matt. And that's kind of how my progressions go throughout my physical therapy.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

So it goes from reformer to Matt generally.

SPEAKER_05 10:28

Yeah. So people typically think that reformer is easier than Matt. Or no, Matt, wait. No.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

No, I would think reformers like like even having a wife that's a physical therapist, I would think reforms. But it goes both ways.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

It depends on the what you can exercise. Because you could make something easier on a reformer, and then you could make something harder on a reformer with resistance.

SPEAKER_05 10:52

It just depends. So, um, and that's a favorite thing for physical therapists to say, is it depends. But um from a Pilates standpoint, mat is the most difficult for say, because you pretty much do all the same exercises just on different apparatuses, whether that's the Cadillac, the chair, the reformer, whatever. But mat I would say is the hardest because it's the hardest to control because your body's alone. There's nothing to give you feedback. And so, especially with my hypermobile people who have a problem with that neurofeedback, yeah, put them on the reformer, it's a lot easier for them to really feel it's working. But yes, you can add resistance to make exercises harder if they can't take the load in standing. So it does go back and forth.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

And what are your thought thoughts about like I don't know, I went to a few classes and like uh in some of these big chain places because my wife like dragged me into them stretch lab? Uh huh. No, not beyond beyond stretch lab. The stretch lab. Yeah, that was that was our next uh sponsor. Yeah, yeah. I was just wondering what the hell like it's like what the hell is this place? They just stretch you, not not the right way, but but like I I went to just try, I was like, this is kind of weird. I just went to check it out, and then they kept on messaging me to keep going phone calls, but yeah, but no, going to Pilot, like I I went to one that was not one of the chain places, and the guy knew what he was doing, but like going to some of the chain places, like the coaches don't know what they're doing, and it's like I'm like, I'm gonna get hurt because I'm gonna think I can do more, and yeah, like I've lost my mobility through the years, so it's like I want to gain my mobility

Avoiding Injury In Big Group Classes

SPEAKER_01 12:40

back with Pilates, but that's not the way to do it, you know.

SPEAKER_05 12:43

And I would say that in a class setting, especially if there's what, like some studios have like 12, 13, 14 reformers. There's no way the instructor knows exactly what each person is doing. And you can get really hurt. Like I've had people come in to me because they got hurt in a Pilates class and they want to get back to it.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

So um the other thing is like if I'm in better shape than the person instructing me, it's kind of questionable.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

That's why you don't go to a dentist that has less teeth than you.

SPEAKER_05 13:12

Exactly. And you want to trust your provider and your coach too. And especially for me, like what I'm looking for in a Pilates, because I go to Pilates classes on my own, and I can I'm a little picky because I'm a physical therapist, so I can understand if someone knows anatomy. Like there's sometimes I'm some plot.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

It's your wreck.

SPEAKER_05 13:28

It's my wreck. Um, locally, do you like heated classes?

SPEAKER_01 13:32

I don't I don't mind heated classes. I asked like 105.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Wreck of everything? Yeah, you that you suggest.

SPEAKER_05 13:41

Um, okay. So my favorite one in the valley for heated mat is the workshop. It's very fun. It's that red room. I don't know if you've seen it on Instagram before.

SPEAKER_03 13:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:51

Um, I would say I do have instructors that I like more than others just because of their knowledge. Um, but that one's just fun, good music, good vibes, but it is dark. So I definitely, for my clients and my patients, yeah, I screen them before they're like, oh, let's go back to a math class. I'm like, okay, hold up, wait. Like, let's make sure that you are able to do this stuff from your injury, and we'll get you graduated to a math class. So that's one of my favorites. Um Desert Movement is another one that we partner with. It's um on 16th and Campbell.

SPEAKER_03 14:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:25

They are amazing. Um, they only have four reformers in the clinic. So very one-on-one, very hands-on. They make sure that you know what you're doing. Um, and they also do math and sculpt classes too. Those are the two that I love personally, also. I love going to those two. I love the girls there. Um, but for the most part, for Pilates, that's kind of the two that I give.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

I I just had an idea today. I was like, it's like should do, should become like a wellness blogger. Like, you know, people go and do the restaurants, but you go to the different wellness studios because we have multiple wellness people. I'm like, I'm gonna go and try try out their wellness studio, you know, either like Red Light or whatever they have, and just like you know, give reviews on all the different ones, I think. Like honest reviews, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

You have the wellness bloggers and or vloggers, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

But they'll tell you like what's what works, they're not gonna tell you, like, oh well, uh unless they're advertising for the different things. That's what I'm saying. That's the problem.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

It's like, okay, it's this is backed up. But you could get paid for it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:33

That'd be cool. Yeah, it'll be interesting. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

You could get paid to just go there. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Or you could be like porn. If you're gonna do that, you gotta you gotta stay honest to the cause. Like, you know what, this is bullshit. Like, this guy's like telling me to do this and my back's fucked up. Like you could be like pornoy and like tell people to fuck off at the pizza place, but he um do you see I know you do a lot of orthopedics and uh so that's uh good

Prehab For Surgery And Better Outcomes

SPEAKER_00 16:10

amount of orth uh like sports injuries. Um what do you think about prehab and do you see people for that?

SPEAKER_05 16:21

Yeah, so I actually just discharge a patient. He's about to do a total hip. Um, so he came to see me for prehab. Um, because you can't do much. Older, older gentlemen um can't do much. And um the reformer and you know, the equipment older like actual age or like Jose.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

This guy's built like a 78-year-old.

SPEAKER_05 16:42

Older age.

unknown 16:43

Older age.

SPEAKER_05 16:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

And everyone's gonna wonder who's Jose.

SPEAKER_05 16:48

Who's Jose?

SPEAKER_00 16:49

He's eventually gonna be a guest.

SPEAKER_05 16:51

Oh, awesome. Love that. Um, you can rip into them too.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

No, you can't.

SPEAKER_05 16:57

No, you can't.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

We'll stop doing the show right away.

SPEAKER_05 17:01

Definitely older than Jose for sure. Um, but yeah, using like Ploty's principles and core control to help before going into um surgery has was really helpful for him. I also treated a um post-stop breast lift and tummy tuck very recently, six weeks out. And she was very scared to go back to um exercise. So I kind of slowly progressed her and now she's back into the gym, no pain, she's all healed, she's pretty good. So that was a really fun one, I would say, to treat and interesting for me to get my hands on.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

So yeah, a lot of the tummy tucks, they're kind of afraid they're gonna tear apart even like months out. You know, you know, and like I'm like I try to get them active earlier on, but you know, with the tummy tuck, you gotta worry about it. The muscle repair, like I that's the only one I kind of take it lighter with like lifting weights and stuff up to six weeks. But most of the other things I do, I you know, people freak out like you know, breast dogs sending them back to like working out within a week to two weeks. Um but no, like Pilates is like I I usually try to get my patients pretty fit before you know, like I tell them to do the workouts and stuff, and then post op I try to get them back into what they can almost immediately.

SPEAKER_05 18:26

Because the better shape and the more um fit and the more strong they are before surgery, whether that's plastics, whether that's uh big replacements, whatever kind of surgery, the better the surgery outcome is gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Yeah, because everything atrophies, and if you're already in poor shape and the atrophies even more, it's gonna be harder to regain. So, like what condition are you gonna be at when it comes to surgery is very important. And just, you know, with Pilates, it could, you know, you could go back a lot earlier with doing weight or Pilates with the appropriate instructor such as you or PT, then you know, not going to some Pilates class.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

So just breaking it down into plain English, like you say atrophy, people like don't understand. If you have surgery done, whether it's knee replacement, hip replacement, cosmetic surgery, tummy tuck, your body takes a hit as far as like you're gonna be set back, you have to not engage certain things, certain muscle groups. So that makes those muscle groups like dwindle down. That's why I brought up prehab. Like you're gonna take that hit, so might as well build it up before that surgery. It's more, I I think it's even more important for like orthopedic surgery, where like you build up your leg strength before you get a knee replacement because you're the you're you have I don't know about modern protocols, but like two weeks of like no like no, the with the knee replacements they get you almost right away. They they do they do, but also like ACL, yeah, it's like a structured protocol, but like total knee replacements, like they have uh weight-bearing things, and it it varies.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

You're gonna go to some surgeons, especially in Arizona, yeah, with a ton of private surgeons, you're gonna have some people that are completely old school and some people that that's what you know, like some some things that good came out of COVID was you know it shifted some of these people's mindsets and like the orthopedic surgeons. Well, I was chair of surgery telling them if you if you're not gonna do this as an outpatient knee replacement, you can't do it. You know, you can't do it in the hospital. And so there and there were a good amount of orthopedic surgeons that were already doing it. They had PT come and see them right there and post post-op day, and then you know, uh they could get their surgery done and they're out the same day.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

And uh a lot of things with with again, knee, hips, yeah, it's range of motion stuff. Yeah. But the main thing I think that's beneficial with prehab is strengthening prior to because the range of motion you can work on that, like, but if you're you're able to build up strength and stuff, the stuff you lose during that perioperative, post-operative period is gonna be minimum compared to somebody that's just not doing anything, not really mobile.

SPEAKER_05 21:42

Yeah. And I feel like um Pilates to tie it back, like the reformer allows you to load the joint without putting impact. So having someone that's prehab for, for example, like a TKA, you can have them do squatting motions, a leg press on the reformer without. them having to actually do a squat where it's painful, right? Because you're not trying to put you're I'm not trying to put people in more pain. I want them to regain muscle. So the reformer is a tool, perfect example of a tool that I use.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

But you're but you're female so you definitely want to put people through pain just by your just genetics.

SPEAKER_05 22:17

Just a little.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

But uh a main thing is range of motion mostly flexion, right? With TKAs or flexion and extension both.

SPEAKER_05 22:27

Um because you want gate good gate mechanics, right? That's the number one thing um to get back first. And so for total knees typically flexion

Pilates For Golfers And Rotation Sports

SPEAKER_05 22:35

extension range of motion is what we go for first.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

And how receptive are guys coming in to get rehab and you're oh guys that douchebags Pilates versus or are they coming in to you guys because you do Pilates rehab?

SPEAKER_05 22:49

Half the times it's um my clients' husband. So they're they come in because they overhear their husband saying they have back pain and then they're like my I don't know how to gauge my core and then they come and see me and they're like what the heck um or it's people that just um word of mouth, you know. I did have one baseball player that came in because his dad was like police would be really good for you. And he came and saw me. We kind of just did general maintenance stuff and helped with his hip mobility. So um it just depends on people's goals like golfers do really well with it. Anyone that needs a little bit more of core control with movement especially yeah golfers, tennis anything rotational.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Yeah I was gonna say like especially vicious rotation. Yeah like pickleball like your fighters tennis yeah fighters to a certain extent but they don't rotate as much as and as hard as as uh tennis players baseball players because like you just go to a batting cage and try to hit like 10 balls and you're like oh I'm exhausted like what's what's going on and a lot of times at least when I was doing it you just kind of like swinging wildly la rather than being like core engaged and like trying to like gather that strength not only it'll like improve your strength throughout the the swing you're when when you're doing it and you're not engaged core wise like you're kind of doing like disservice to your back too absolutely and um I will preface like I will not help you with your swing like I am not the person to see if you want to get a better swing.

SPEAKER_05 24:36

I'm not the person to see if you want power in your swing but I am the person to see how to engage your core to help enhance your swing right and the core like trunk rotation is the basis of all those sports right so whether that's trunk rotation hip rotation upper body rotation thoracic so um it just gives them more awareness and I've seen with golfers on anything rotational golfers, tennis, whatever um Pilates kind of helps because it you load it in rotation not a lot of times you do that in normal training.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

So and if you're what's doing that's what I was just about to say if you don't engage your core you might flip your car over. There you go like it's uh devastating effects and alcohol yes yeah no but it it's especially golf in Arizona too like you're like that's that's why I never got big into golf because every time I did it I my back was just like yeah you better lay off whatever you're doing. Um but it it's like when I say it's a vicious turn if you don't do it regularly and don't know how to do it properly like it just like kind of like doing like a back stretch with like extreme I agree that's um that's why I I never did it either I'm like until I get appropriate coaching I'm not gonna go and try it on my yeah it drives you mentally insane because you're like I can drive this ball further so let me go let me go harder and there was one time just hit this like jumbo bucket of balls and then went to the batting cages after it and I was like all right let's ramp this up to 85 miles an hour as literally like just bunting like throwing the ball throwing the bat at the ball uh and I was just like oh man and I'm freaking exhausted yeah so you golf how's your golfing right it's not great what's your handicap I don't know what's your handicap what's your bench press we ask all our guests what's your bench press um uh I am not good at golf my husband golfs he's also a physical therapist as well okay um same practice yeah I practice I mean like I just got bored of sitting in the cart and riding along so I was like let me see if I could swing at club so with my hypermobility great back swing but the control is a little different story.

SPEAKER_05 27:06

My husband says my swing's okay so I'm like okay I mean I can play better than my friend so that's all that matters. Um but yeah um bench press I just recently started like hybrid training which is kind

Hybrid Training Bench Press Fears

SPEAKER_05 27:20

of totally opposite of everything kind of that I do but um what's hybrid training? Like I started going to a gym where they do a mix of strength and like conditioning cardio because I since being not being a dancer I did so much cardio and then I went to Pilates and um you don't get much cardio from that unless you're doing like a cardio math class like a 100 to five degree heated room or whatever. So and um my mom recently had a stroke back in April and so I was like okay I need to like get my health in check. I need to be better at cardio. I was working a lot on my joint stability earlier this year. And so um now I've been doing like ergs and rowers and all these things that's so foreign to me but it's a lot of fun. Started bench pressing I'd never been able to bench press a barbell ever in my whole life one because of fear and two because I'm scared of my shoulder.

SPEAKER_03 28:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:10

But I bench pressed 15s on both sides the other day and I was like all right like maybe the shoulder can actually do some stuff but that's with like proper knowledge and you know not just being thrown at stuff with the good coaches. But yeah not too much but I was like it was just a win to be able to say I did it.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Yeah. I kind of I stopped doing it. I just used resistance bands. Yeah and the thing is my shoulders are so bad already it's like you know with operating and holding retractors and stuff it's like yeah to even like the overhead presses I try to stay away from too much. But like yeah bench presses and I did pretty heavy like competition style like deadlift bench presses and I was like I gotta put stop to that otherwise like I couldn't do any more breast dogs.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

So it's fair in college I was doing these like month three month long programs to like build up strength and it's the good old days no internet so just like buy a book with like uh Arnold Schwarzenegger no no the this guy was like the the strength coach for like North Carolina oh yeah that one yeah I had that one oh is that where I got it from yeah so it's like three months long and it was really good like I got very strong but like stick to the basics. I I was just like okay I got I got to my goal let me let me get to the next goal and I was like 315 because it I'm like three plates on each side that's gonna look really like cool and like you build up so you go 275 295 like two three reps and then like end of the month you go for your max weight and it was for 275 three times and it's like you're you'll be able to hit 315 in a few weeks and I went to like I I felt good so I was like five six and on the six one I just heard my shoulder I'm like oh shit yeah like like put this down ASAP and put it down right on my chest need a rescue but like then I was like I don't need to do that um but I I still lifted pretty heavy after like a few months off but like in my older age I'm like yeah I don't know if I need to do this and even when I was doing it my my friends and I still talk about it it just like you know what I added like an extra like 10 pounds 25 pounds just to look good for the girls in the gym and they really don't know the difference between no they don't between like 200 pounds and 215 pounds I'm like oh check this out what watch me tear my shoulder out yeah it's a male mentality yeah so just like our friend that talks about explosiveness and I'm like well he does he he does jujitsu which one Corley oh yeah yeah but he does jujitsu but like we always talk about it and he's always talking about like how he needs to have explosiveness and we're like dude we're close to 50 like what do you need explosiveness for I'm like you're not uh you're not a you never know when you need to take somebody down for two points yeah quit those days just keep do what makes you functional and alive right yeah that's that's the biggest thing it's like yeah just gotta remind myself like even like later at night you you know you get home you're tired but like you know just in instead of like sitting around just get up and like do the stretches get your Achilles like lengthened and and your knees yeah that's yeah instead of sitting around doom scrolling any movement's good movement if it's safe even thumbs maybe stretch them so how about some recovery produ like do you have your patients like do anything for recovery post treatments and stuff I would say the biggest debate as a physical therapist that I hear a lot is heat versus ice it's like the number one thing that I hear for pain right for in general um my big tip that I like to give for the most part because some clinicians are very anti-heat some clinicians are very anti-ice it just depends but I like to give the advice like if it's swollen angry hot if it feels hot ice it yeah if it's stiff like if you feel tense if it's you know like needs to be pliable heat that's kind of the one thing that I usually give as far as like cryotherapy

Recovery Basics Heat Ice Red Light

SPEAKER_00 33:10

ice cold plunge things like that I haven't tried enough myself to really like give my patients advice about it but I say do what you like if it's not gonna kill you right do what you prefer like your good recovery whatever that is um and be consistent with it because if you're not consistent you're not gonna have any results.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

So the one thing my patient's like I tried red light therapy once and like it didn't help me and I'm like well did you try it try it for a week try it for a month I know you know yeah and like you know I I tell a lot of people because like I use my red light mat and it pretty much got rid of like an eight month old nagging back problem and I tried peptide I tried rid of an eight month old child. Yeah that's a good red light it could do that too you just gotta lay in it long enough but um I I was just gonna say I'm generally as a physician um anti-ICE okay unless they're gonna deport Joseph there you go this is just a roast jose session oh no this is every every time I try to sneak a couple jose jokes because I I only make fun of people I really like yeah I think like the red and hot like I want to see what your sit situation was whether you recommended cold plunge um yeah for I I think it's if you're talking about you're exactly right the red and hot and like yeah you want to cool it off but like for the red light Matt like yeah people are like yeah I tried it it didn't work and I'm I'm like trying it's not like really you know I lay on mine like every night like half an hour 45 minutes I even pass out on it because it's it's got like infrared like near and far and although it seems like one of these marks on his face yeah although it seems like one of these like eight in ones from like Alibaba it seriously it works like is it just a mat like on the yeah it's a mat on the floor and like my my friend was about to buy just like you know the red light sleeping bag and I'm like don't buy that I'm like yeah that's only four in one no I was like well I I know what's worked like I haven't like taken one of those just like red light I'm like these uh all these other modalities like light PEMF and stuff with it I think it helped out and like I was like buy the mat instead of buying the whole sleeping bag because for me the mat really worked and he tried it he said he had joint pain all over and like and he he runs a lot works out a lot he's he's he just turned 50 this year which we went to his birthday party but he's like after a few like a week on it he's like he feels totally he's like I wake up in the morning without any pain so it's like there you go and I I've had good amount of people and like who I've told people that have gone and just bought straight just red light it hasn't worked as well as buying the one with the multifunctionality.

SPEAKER_05 36:19

Yeah and do your research right and oh never just listen to something you see on TikTok never just listen to something you see on the internet like always do your research so yeah I'm I'm on TikTok too I'm on TikTok also um do your Reddit research research do your Reddit research yeah um but yeah I'd always tell patients like all movement's good movement as long as it's safe and just choose what feels good like and I'd want to give them the autonomy right yeah and the hardest job I feel like for physical therapist is getting people to be active like first of all first and foremost. And so I always encourage people if they're doing something whether that's walking their dog every night for like an hour 30 minutes great that's something now let's build on top of that.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Yeah um so as recovery pose holding up a sign saying 10 minutes left yeah that's you should do that every single day yeah maybe do a weighted weighted 10 minute sign it's like 10 pounds that'll help you out pull it out burn out those shoulders yeah it's always you know you gotta just because I kind of I forget what happened that I got away kind of from like the working out the the thing is like it's just having two toddlers at home I think well a two and a five year old and it's like they sleep in their one of them sleeps in one room one of them sleeps in our room and then it was like they switch rooms and then they sleep in our room and it's like where do I keep the gym equipment where do I dude they they're pretty dense kids you gotta just do cleans with them. Well I got them their own gym gym set in my gym. So um but like it was like getting all that set and being like all right and actually the Italy trip having the jet lag kind of helped because I'm like I'm waking up at five might might as well work out before I I get to work and make that like you know you go to sleep you wake up you and I hate it on that that's yeah that's how I hurt my back I was like I was waking up at 4 30 I'm like I might as well go to the gym. Let's hit it three times in a week and I got and my brain is fogged like the thing is like I'm telling you like get an aura ring or like the whoop like it seriously tells you because I was like my recovery was like shitty it was like in the 50s and I like stretched up and I was like I think I just tore my serratus I'm like doing nothing I was like I worked out the rest of my body and reach for bad afterwards I like reach for one thing and I'm like oh I that's totally my stupid recovery from like working out every day I'm like all right take take it lightly today yeah so have you ever hit one percent no that's great I've I've gone into the 30s

Oura Ring And Whoop Readiness Reality

SPEAKER_01 39:05

I have once congratulations it was on flight back from Tahiti from a honeymoon yeah and I just didn't I was so tired sun tired somewhere everywhere barely slept like eating a lot drinking a lot you know and um I looked at my whip score when I got on the airplane from the night before and I was like wow and I looked at my husband because he's got a whip too and I was like I hit the one percent he's like 10% I'm like yeah the whoop I don't check as much as the ring the ring yeah um what do you like better the ring the ring the app's so much easier I think to interpret and stuff the whoop I think one of the setbacks for the whoop is to keep your journal and I'm like I you know it says when did you drink your caffeine and I'm like fuck just skip that and if it if you went straight to the app every time I think it would be because it asks you to journal what yeah but just like part of my it's like part of my morning routine so I like make it a habit every day to check my journal off um so keeping it accountable but the good thing is it offsets when the battery runs out in one of them the other one so the other one yeah but like smart but like the the thing with the aura ring like when it tells you you're getting sick you're getting sick and like you straight up you're like all right my throat's scratchy the day after the whoop told you your temperature was up a little bit and your recoveries you're you're off a bit and and they keep on improving it so I have the four now they have the five and they keep on just like adding more functionality to it. Um the thing I with the whoop is I you know everyone says it's great for I just don't know if I'm wearing it right they say it's great for like the fitness checks and stuff but like I have is it telling you you're out of shape huh well it tells me I'm aging at 1.6 years per year so I'm like 50 something biological age on my whoop so not very good. Yeah you're like whoop dog years ahead of us yeah so it's it's definitely telling me I'm older than I should be um well all other metrics tell you you're younger than you should be yeah like the scale and I gotta get yeah I gotta get a biological age test see but yeah it's you know I kind of listen to what these things say you know like some if and you feel like crap when it tells you you you your scores are crap you're you're usually kind of feeling crap do you feel 56 whoop years old I don't know like oh the thing I was saying about the whoop was so I have my AI bike that I use and that has a heart strap so when I wear the whoop it's like your heart's in great condition because it doesn't like my heart rate doesn't even go up like I'm on there I'm sprinting and it doesn't even doesn't really it goes up a little bit when I put that strap around my chest it's a lot more variability than I see from this that's where I'm like I don't know this is it's the newer one and people said say it's like the metrics aren't as good as the older version.

SPEAKER_05 42:22

Like the 4.0 version yeah because I had both yeah um I think I only had the 4.0 for a couple months and this one I've had longer and I've heard the same thing from people.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Yeah uh it has more functionality it gives you EKG or whatever yeah I just do the 12 lead stress tests I just go into the cardiologist to find out where I'm at tells me to slow down my I don't care he tells me to slow down on my bike you get he's got two kids you don't get to I haven't had chest pain yet to go to cardiologist I only get chest pain from my fourth Red

Five Minute Mornings And Dynamic Warmups

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Bull.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

So what's what what are some stretches like what are some things you do on a daily basis like when you wake up in the morning are there like if you have things five minutes yeah actually if you have five minutes like how would you spend your five minutes um so five minutes in the morning to myself yeah I had five minutes yeah yeah yeah do you have kids?

SPEAKER_05 43:18

No no kids not yet um I try to practice deep breathing because a lot of times I mean I wake up a lot of jaw pain and I feel like I'm just like so tense all the time. So if I had five minutes to spare if I wake up in the morning just take a couple of deep diaphragmatic breaths in and out you know just gonna reset the nervous system. Get out of bed slowly I feel like that's a lot of things like a big thing that a lot of my patients do. They just like I notice they get off the table really fast. No reason they have no reason to rush like slow down. Like you have five minutes get out of bed slowly you know like take your time to wake up like I'm a big coffee drinker. So the first thing I get up get out of bed do a little stretch if I have time I'll take some time to do some breath work. And then um set the coffee machine, but take my time. Like that's the biggest thing because I feel like everybody's just in a rush all the time. Um I don't really have a structured, like set morning routine every morning. But um like twice a week I work out in the morning. So on those weeks I try to get some some carbs in before I work out, go to my workout, come back, take my type of carbs do you take in the morning? Oh, before my workout. Um I usually do rice cake, a little bit of peanut butter, and some fruit. It's like my favorite pre-workout. Can't eat anything too heavy, and it's like the perfect amount of sugar, I feel like, before. Um, and I've been doing like a lot heavier lifts and lots of erg work and cardio, so I need that extra. But Pavilates, I don't do I'll probably eat like half of what I would eat for that because I feel like I don't eat as much, but I definitely need something before I work out.

unknown 44:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Are there any stretches or like warm-ups that you do before working out?

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Or um, I just kick your leg over your head like eight times before you I might have done that when I'm 17, but not anymore. Come on, come up, check this out.

SPEAKER_05 45:10

Yeah. Um I try to do dynamic warmups if I'm gonna do like independent lift. Oh um, so kind of like your walk across the turf. Uh like hamstring scoops, quad pulls, like your normal, like kind of athletic dynamic warm-up back and forth on turf. But I love that kind of stuff. I grew up static stretching and holding it for like 30 seconds and holding it there, which I feel kind of doesn't do really do anything for the most part. Um, I mean, it worked for my flexibility-wise, but it wrecked my joints as a dancer. And like now that I'm older, I'm like, okay, I love like a good dynamic warm-up before I lift because it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

Research shows that dynamics way better. Better than static.

SPEAKER_05 45:53

Um, so I wish I knew that as a dancer. Um, and still like it's just education, I feel like now, especially because I was so tied to the dance community, like train like an athlete, and that's what that could be your TikTok hit.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

It's showing all the dynamic stretches to do. Dynamic versus static. Dynamic versus static. Because everyone still does everyone's like huge into just the static. I even like, you know, like you feel something's tight and you it's because it's what you know. You don't know.

SPEAKER_05 46:24

Initial thought is to like stretch out your calf, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Yeah. Um like coming from the World Cup, everyone's like, never though that's like, let me stretch out my keys. My leg, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:34

Um, half the time you need to strengthen it, you don't need to stretch it. So um, like hamstring tears is the number one example we give SPTs. Like the moment you have a hamstring strain, people want to stretch it out, but half the time it's better to do asymmetrics because it helps kind of regain that neural.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Um, so even my back issues recently, it's like my instincts to like or e even if it's yoga, cat, cow, yeah, child's pose, it it's also adding a level of like inflammation strain to the area. So I'm like, uh I keep doing it, and then like uh this like might not be good.

SPEAKER_04 47:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:14

And my wife tells me, stop. And I'm like, I don't know, I think this is gonna work out, and it doesn't. It never works out.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

Yeah, I do like the knees over toes guy, and I have the apparatus to do the different exercises, like Nordic curls, like different things to stretch your curls where like you gotta kind of it's almost like doing a reverse leg curl, but you're doing it with body weight, so you're you have your legs stuck on the thing, and then you're just like going up.

SPEAKER_05 47:48

Doing like the Michael Jackson, like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Yeah, I thought it was just they're tough. Like exercising, no, they're really hard. Yeah, I thought it was just exercising while you eat smoked salmon. Yeah, that sounds like a Nordic curl.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Uh-huh. Yeah. I don't know why it's called Nordic curl, but it it works really well, especially for your tight lower back. How about like um so I I gotta try this thing out. I I bought this, like they have an EMS underwear, so I haven't tried it out because I haven't charged, yeah. So it's like a tens machine thing. I wish it balls while you're asleep like three times an hour. I mean it's on the website. Something a red light thing for my shoulders, and like and I'm like, I'm sorry, do you guys very interesting Timu? What was it? No Timu. No, it wasn't Theresage, it was a new one I tried. I forget what it was, but I I was like, this is interesting. The CMS boxers. I'm like, how long are you supposed to wear this thing? And it's boxers. Like, how do you wash this thing? It's like, you know, so he's willing to try any of that out.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

Oh, one thing

Dry Needling What Works Fast

SPEAKER_00 49:05

before we run out of time. I was looking for red light boxers, but one thing before we run out of time, I saw you're certified with dry needling.

SPEAKER_05 49:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Where have you seen that most effective or very effective?

SPEAKER_05 49:17

Um, I would say as a clinician, it's one of the most like as a PT, it's one of the most like instantaneous things that can help people. Hamstring, um, that's the number, like I would say that's one of the ones that feel kind of immediately good after is if we dry needle the hamstring. If you get a hamstring strain um right in this um symptomatic area, they feel pretty good right after I get a little bit more extensibility and follow it up with exercise, of course. Um, I did have a patient, stiff uh ankles like limited dorsiflexion right into the dorsal retinoculum. Um, and you stim it, you can eastim it too. Immediate results.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Um, so there's a bunch of different like theories of how it works and why it's you get addicted to it because it's like it's like it's like this it's painful, but it's like it feels so good after it. It's like micro. If I had hurt his wife do it on my back, my delts were like just like in knots, and it's like you could almost feel them unravel.

SPEAKER_05 50:19

Yeah, upper traps, I would say, is the most common thing that I need.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

And I was just like, I can't do this. Yeah, that's like it.

SPEAKER_05 50:32

And then you're like, oh, shoot, but it feels really good after, right?

SPEAKER_00 50:35

Typically after or 24 hours after sometimes you have that soreness for like that first day, yeah, but then the next time, but like you're saying, like people get addicted to it. Like I was like, Yeah, one person in Sarah's clinic got like certified for it a few years ago, and so you just needle every everybody, and every other practitioner in the practice is like seven, eight like physical therapists. They were all like, Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna go for that course. And then they were just like, She's like, Yeah, um I have to stay like 30 minutes late because I'm gonna dry needle this person. And they're just like all the therapists, like simple like aches and pains that you would like just walk or around with. They're like, Oh, I'm just gonna get dry needled. Sounds about right. Yeah. How's that different from acupuncture?

SPEAKER_05 51:37

Um, good question. So it stems from acupuncture. It's kind of a common misconception. So acupuncture is the old world technique, like Chinese medicine. Um, that's where it stemmed from. So they took the needles from acupuncture, some researchers, um, and just pushed it deeper. Deeper. Basically, they're like, let's go deeper, let's go into the actual tissue, let's go into the muscle, let's go into the fascia, let's go into the bone, ligament, tendon, whatever. Um, and they found it can create different responses based on the person, based on the tightness, based on whatever's going on. And you do it for different reasons. So one of the main points is trigger point dry needling. So a lot of times with upper traps, you look for that top band, you see that nice little twitch whenever you put it in, take it out immediately. And that should help kind of reset neural pathways in your upper traps to help kind of relax the muscle. Um, a common like analogy I give for um some times when it gets stuck. So a lot of like the collagen fibers actomizing, you know, it all like attaches to the needle, kind of like winding um a spaghetti on a fork. And so it like gets really, really winded up when you release the fork, everything kind of releases. So that's the one analogy I give to my patients. That's what's happening at the cellular site when you get dry needled. Um, so it could be brain relief, it could increase flexibility or mask sensibility to tissue, um, it could increase muscle activation. So a lot of times after knee surgery, ACL, right in the quads, you stem it, you have a little bit of that jump with the stem, um, better quad activation with dry needling. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

How many areas could you do at once?

SPEAKER_05 53:16

As many as you want. Um, I don't do well, in the course, you get a lot done. They call it needle drunk. So you get a lot done in two days. So it's a weekend course, and there's a bunch of different people that do the courses. Weekend course, head to toe, needled, like 250 insertions. By the end of day two, you literally just feel like a limp noodle. Like we call it needle drunk. And so I went home at 6 p.m., went to bed, like took sure I went to bed immediately, and you just like feel like everything's loose. And I'm already so hypermobile that it was just like probably not the best thing for me to do, to be honest. Um, but I mean, it's just positioning, like based on positioning, and you don't want to overshock the nervous system.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

And anyone do it under ultrasound, or there's you're just going to do that.

SPEAKER_05 54:00

Yes, that's a newer thing. I would say um they're doing ultrasound guided dry needling just to help the patient see, but also so you can see how deep you're going. But that's more like emerging tech, I would say, in the PT world.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

I don't think it's necessary person. I don't think so. Yeah. Yeah. It's more of a. A lot of times, like even like we will dry needle each other. And with plastic surgery, I kind of know anatomy and like where she'll be afraid to go like a little deeper. I'm like, yeah. She's like, okay, you're you're gonna you could cause a pneumothorax if you if you go too deep, like next to the lung. I'm like, um, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to tell before I go that deep. And then just gauging how because they uh they have different length needles. Like she's she's used some needles that are about like I would say like three, four inches.

SPEAKER_05 54:56

Like your psoas one is probably four or five. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

Yeah. And then there's some that that are really short.

SPEAKER_05 55:02

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Those are but that's still a lot longer than your acupuncture needles, which are pretty much like skin and subcutaneous tissue for most of the acupuncture.

SPEAKER_05 55:12

Yeah, and it's subcutaneous tissue, right? So um you always want to err on the side of caution with PTs. So I'd be the exact same way with the neothorax thing being anywhere close to PECS. Um if you go through like the first dry needling courses, the intro courses, you don't even touch anywhere besides PECs and lats, but that's the lift technique. So you pull away, then you stop it. Um, but as you get more certified certifications, um just get more comfortable with comfy. Yeah, it's more comf like more comfort based, but um, I kind of stray away from anything that's close. Like I would never needle in the ribcage, even if someone asked me to.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

Yeah, I I saw papers about it like causing a pneumothorax, but like even when Sarah's like sticking me with a needle, she's like, Oh, I'm kind of scared. It's getting I'm like that needle's so tiny. Exactly. Like, if you even puncture the lung with that size needle, the chances you get a pneumothorax is extremely low. Like, just just go ahead, go deep.

SPEAKER_01 56:09

It's big with our

Breast Cancer Rehab And Cording Relief

SPEAKER_01 56:10

breast cancer patients, too. I I wish like we could get more of them into like dry needle, especially when they get radiation and stuff. Uh with radiation, especially. Because everyone's like caught and they they can't move their arms above 90, especially after radiation.

SPEAKER_04 56:29

Oh my gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:30

I think it would definitely help.

SPEAKER_00 56:32

Yeah, I think it helps a lot with like superfascial restriction. Yeah, just from surgery not moving around, but that superficial fascia, I think like if you're just like your muscles, if you don't stretch them out, it it doesn't mobilize as much. So it it even with mobilization techniques, like that keeps that that fluidity and I don't know, the stretch in that layer, which which helps because it's like another area of restriction on top of like your muscles, like just getting used to not moving around as much.

SPEAKER_05 57:10

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's tons of PTs too that are certified in breast health. So I think that's a super important uh point to bring up and think about the dry needling part. So yeah, that would work.

SPEAKER_00 57:23

Yeah, and uh one one thing with the breast health and stuff, um cording, axillary cording. We we see a ton of a lot of people like say, Oh, I just had the breast surgery, so I can't move my arm past this, but they're like maybe like 80-90 percent like range, but they they tell me like when I go past this point, I feel this, but there's a lot of people don't address that cording in the in the armpit or exilla, where uh physical therapy with that specific area is so like within like two visits, like it just completely releases that. And people don't realize like how okay, um you might have to cut out an hour of your day, two days this week, but like the benefit you'll get, like you can't quantify it, but like you'll be so much more comfortable.

SPEAKER_05 58:28

Yeah, it's just like showing up is the hardest part. I feel like especially they've gone through so much already that it's like at one more appointment they have to deal with.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of doctors' visits.

SPEAKER_05 58:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

So your plastic surgeon, your breast surgeon, your oncologist, oncologists, medical oncologists, um, on top of your regular doctor's visits.

SPEAKER_05 58:48

So but it has made such a difference in the patients I've seen that have had breast cancer before, like yeah, and seeing a breast health specialist in general, too. It's they're far and few between, but yeah, I think it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 59:01

That's why we send uh pretty much everybody to physical therapy, even if they don't have like real complaints. Yeah, love that as long as they again I'm biased. My wife's a physical therapy. Yeah, which is great. So it's like okay, I know how how much it's done for me when I've thought I had no problems. But um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:22

So rapid fire

Rapid Fire Picks And Closing

SPEAKER_01 59:24

questions. We do like questions before we mess off. Oh, yeah, yeah. Um so eight questions. So Pilates or weightlifting, pick one for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_04 59:41

Weightlifting.

SPEAKER_01 59:43

I would say Pilates.

SPEAKER_04 59:44

Really? Yeah.

unknown 59:45

Not on.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

I'd say Pilates is yeah. It's a tough call. Nuanced, but yeah, best after workout snack.

SPEAKER_05 59:53

Best after workout snack. Core clean. Um shake, like a good protein shake. I love mangoes, pineapples, anything with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

One stretcher mobility drill, everyone should do daily.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:08

Uh I love a good quadruped, thread the needle. It's one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

All right, dry needling. Hold on.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:17

Like all force. And then you go thread the needle open and close. One of my favorites.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

Dry needling yes or no for yourself.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

One exercise you'd ban for if you could.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:30

One exercise I'd ban if I could.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

Bent rust 500 pound cleaning jerks.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:37

Um I hate Zerger squats. I hate them.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

Do you? Yeah, I've changed over. Well, with the resistance bands, I've switched from doing doing the front loaded squats because uh the band's shorter, and I actually like the Zerger squats.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:54

I like uh banded front squats. Like Zerger squats. I just have weak forums, so like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

Um foam roller or massage gun?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:08

Foam roller.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:10

Weirdest place you've ever done Pilates session.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:13

Weirdest place I've ever done a Pilates session.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

Some random genius like truck container in my like my my balcony?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:25

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

One body part most people neglect.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:30

Core.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

Yeah. All right. Thank you. That's it.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:34

Thank you.